Well let me ask you this then, Gordon Edward Williams was a Major General, I think. He was involved in this, with the Bentwaters Woodbridge UFO and he stated, just recently, that he actually talked to an alien.
Well I'm not sure he did say that. I saw it reported on the internet, but I would be very surprised if it was a first hand quote. I mean I've actually sat down, together with a civilian UFO researcher Georgina Bruni, who wrote a book on this. We sat down and had dinner with the General a couple of years ago and he certainly made no such claim. I would be extremely surprised, I'm not sure what the source of that is, I have a feeling that its a second or third hand quote.
Yeah you are probably right, I don't know the source either, I just happened to see it.
I don't think he made the quote, I don't think he saw the UFO, let alone any extraterrestrials. Just going back to the investigation on a critical question, a UFO investigation should be similar in a way, to a police investigation with some of the things you do. In other words you need an investigation plan, an interview, witnesses, to identify, recover and analyze evidence. Those two strands, as it were, are common in both police investigations and UFO investigations. One of the things that can go wrong in either investigation is delay and delay was a critical factor, I'm afraid, in the Rendlesham Forest investigation. In part because there was a critical period and many of the key personnel were on leave. I think it exposed a gap, as it were, by virtue of the fact that there should have been a standard operating procedure, so that everyone should have known what their actions should have been. Instead, I think, everyone ran around saying oh gosh what do we do, we never had anything like this before?
Do you think that's because nobody takes a UFO investigation very seriously?
I think that is a big part of it. I agree very much so by the very nature of the word UFO Some people will roll their eyes and start humming the X-Files, all sorts of potential ridicule, and I suppose that's why Air Force pilots who have seen UFOs. never reported them, probably because they feared ridicule. They felt that the chain of command might question their judgment and psychological state, such is life. Yeah I think that was the critical factor perhaps in what went wrong in the investigation at Rendlesham. They thought, UFOs. what do we do? In fact that was one of the reasons, when I was filling the post, we tried banning the use of the word UFO, at least in our internal discussions. We tried to replace it with UAP Unidentified Ariel Phenomenon. We felt that we were just trying to rebrand the whole phenomenon in a more scientific way, because it was due to the critical nature of the UFOs. and I think your audience attributed this to a political or military or governmental forum.
Have you ever heard of a UFO crash in the British Empire?
I have certainly seen, shall we say, all sorts of second and third hand reports, but certainly I have not seen a first hand report. I think that what is a potential crash site to various researchers will invariably turn out to be an aircraft crash, or a fireball, or indeed, just a very tall story. So that, yes I heard many many stories, but really only in UFO literature, not in any of the MOD case files.
I don't know if you can answer the next question or not? Project Blue Book had about 4 employees. How many people worked at the UFO project at the MOD and what were their duties?
Well it was effectively just me and one administrative duty officer in a support role. Having said that, of course you have to understand, that doesn't tell the whole story of what we couldn't do, or be it that they were not full time on the project, but any time we wanted, we could pull in. So we were the ones, as it were, at the center of the web, but we could pull in, for example, Air Force Officers to impound radar tapes, then to pick them up and analyze them, get special personnel, special equipment and make inspections of personnel and equipment. Make sure we had the personnel and special equipment to punch through the formality to get the radar tapes at Fylingdales, so that when you look at Blue Book and you look at us, it sounds like very small numbers. I hope and think that we punched above our weight.
I think that you did. Have you ever come across any UFO cases that turned out not to be UFO cases, just some people pursuing an agenda?
You mean an out and out hoax?
Well a hoax or something where they were using it to make a reputation for themselves.
No, not in an official capacity. I've come across all sorts of hoaxes, pranks, things like that. There are a number of videos and things like that. I am not talking about anything official, we didn't go on file sharing sites, like Youtube and things, that you see on almost a daily basis. They are what I suspect, some viral marketing campaign or some designer showcasing their talents and having a bit of fun with a hoax. I think that is something that has always gone on. Back in the 1950s, people were trying to fool the Ministry of Defence by literally cutting out saucer shapes and pasting them to their window and taking a photograph. So its always gone on. Its just that the technology to do it is getting more sophisticated, but I don't think, hoaxing has always been a part of the problem, but it is a minuscule part of the problem. Again without going into the details of the base facility we had we had all sorts of specialists, equipment and indeed personnel to analyze these things, who could very easily spot a fake.
Ken: Right.
No, I think one of the points about disc shaped craft is that they are incredibly unstable and this would be a very very difficult shape to fly. Now I don't dispute, it is a matter of record that there were aircraft designers that were thinking about these things, but I don't believe and I see no evidence to suggest that the Nazis ever got anything remotely like a working prototype, let alone an operational craft and lets face it, this was total war, if the Nazis had something like that, a craft like that, they would have used it. I don't think the thought or ideas of such a craft went very far off the drawing board.
The United States had at least one incident where several missiles were shut down and prevented from going back on launch ready status, while a UFO hovered above the silos. An example of this happened at Malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana, in 1967. This would seem to be a threat to the world's defenses. Correct me if I am wrong, but the British government has said in the past that UFOs. pose no threat. Did the British government ever investigate this incident and if so, what conclusion did they come to if you know?
I don't know. I am aware of the case from the literature. I am not sure whether the Americans ever shared any information on that with the British government. I don't, to be honest, know if the British government ever asked the Americans for a report on that. So, yes, sorry I don't know.
Al right that's the answer.
Well I am familiar with that case. I think that what might have been called a UFO might have been two UFOs. and not as much as a mile long. I haven't heard officially. I think I recall having an interview with the pilot concerned. His name is Ray Bowyer in which he said well that was just an estimate of something very far away, I think I might have worked it out. So this is really not something of value. Having said that, perhaps it being a mile wide seems to be of extreme interest, in the short term, the MOD did investigate and there is a case file, a very small one and again it is on the MOD's website. If you search the term UFO, Channel Islands, you'll find it. I think it is about a half dozen pages. Well again I don't like to criticize, but it is not the most detailed investigation in the world and no one seems to know for sure what type of radar sensor there was at the airport security, which I would have thought would have been the first question that they asked. Whether there is anything new going on or indeed the civil aviation authorities might know something as well, I don't know. It may be that the pressure from the journalists and Parliament and the UFO community might cause the MOD to scan a bit. There is a small case file on it and indeed now from Ray Bowyer, the pilot, and from one of the other sources in the aviation community here there does seem to be an indication that they are working on the tracking on radar and there does seem to be corroboration of the findings. So those things say a lot.
Al right
Yes I do agree with it and I guess its true of both military pilots and civil airline pilots, many of whom have told me, off the record, of UFO sightings and many of whom have told me that they didn't write a report, because they feared for their jobs or they feared ridicule from their colleagues or they knew it would cause them much difficulty. Its extremely unfortunate. Technically, reporting isn't optional it is mandatory, particularly if the object comes close enough to present a potential hazard. By training, all pilots do have to do that and I think it is encouraging that there have been several more over the years, but I do think that there is still a job to be done in selling this message to the aviation community. It is not something to be embarrassed about, frankly it should be in the training. Its very interesting, a couple of years ago previously, the Ministry of Defence published a previously highly classified discussion on UFOs. and one of the recommendations did relate to flight safety, so there is an issue quite apart from what UFOs. are, having flight safety as the issue and certainly I'm aware of quite a number of cases where there has been a near collision between aircraft and UFOs.
Did any of the reports you received on non UFO topics ever seem to tie into a legitimate UFO sighting? For example did you ever get a paranormal report and it turned out that it was really a UFO sighting that they were talking about?
No, I got, I think I mentioned at the outset, I did get reports such as alien abductions, crop circles and ghosts. All those sightings tended to be fairly compartmentalized. I am always wary of bad science in explaining one sighting by another. I mean literally, I would get a report from some security guard saying they were on night patrol and saw a shadowy figure walk through a wall for example. I would regard that as a ghost report. I didn't have much to do with it, I didn't try and explain one mystery by another.
Giorgio Bonguivanni met with the Russian military after getting permission from former President Gorbachev to do so. The Russians answered questions pertaining to UFOs. The Russian general that was interviewed said that he believed that there were powers other than humans and they were expecting something from us and that information is being withheld by Russia and the US on UFOs. What is your opinion about his statement and does it surprise you that he was so candid?
Well again I know that there are so many statements that are doing the rounds that are false
May I interrupt you on this?
Yeah.
This was on a DVD. The whole meeting was recorded on video.
So this was the general first hand?
Unless the DVD. is a fraud.
Well are you familiar with Mr. Giorgio Bonguivanni, he's a....
Yes I believe I met him, he is a stigmatic.
Exactly.
Yes I met him a few years ago in London. So yeah, I am familiar with him. In fact I may have seen the DVD. or one certainly very much like it. I have seen all sorts of former Soviet military personnel speak on UFOs. What I'm listening to invariably, is someone dubbing. I don't know Russian so I don't know if everything is taken in the literal sense, or the comments are simply about belief. For example Lord Hill-Norton, who I mentioned earlier, went on the public record a number of times saying that he believed that there was a cover up. He didn't know, that was his belief.
Well that is what the general claimed too, he was just saying his belief.
Whether that belief comes from knowledge or first hand evidence, we don't know.
I guess you know Bob Lazar?
Yes,
Do you think that he actually worked at Area 51 and do you think that he actually saw a flying saucer?
Again I'm going to have to fall back on I don't know. My only knowledge of this is through UFO literature therefore I'm better at my work qualifying what I used to do.
Okay, I've got a more interesting question. A famous sighting occurred at Shag Harbor in Canada on October 4, 1967, where a UFO supposedly crashed into the water and a second one came to rescue it. There were all sorts of stories about American and Canadian ships chasing them and divers seeing the craft and even aliens. Do you think that there is any truth to any of this and if not, what could the objects have been that seemed to be able to navigate while flying and also while submerged?
Well again I'm familiar with that case, but I am sorry to keep.....
I'm only asking a personal opinion.
Again, I really don't know. Its not a case that I have studied at the MOD. Again I really don't know any more or less than anyone else. I read the odd magazine article. There is an old saying used by intelligence analysts all over the world. The phrase is interesting if true.
That's a good one.
In cases like this its hard to say. You know if I was interviewing you and asked for an answer to every single case in Britain, Canada and America I think it would be awfully suspicious. No expert I know, knows it all.
I wasn't really asking for you expert opinion in this, I just wanted to know how you felt about it.
I am going to have to fall back on the, interesting if true.
Okay
I think that what happened there is that what you might have is a local newspaper report. What happened over the last several months, is that the Ministry of Defence released summary sheets of all UFO sightings reported to the department from 1998 to 2006, but what happened is that all the local media have seized on this, they found it on the Ministry of Defence website, so they have run stories, but only about UFO sightings in their area, so you have got a lot of people saying we found 20 UFO sightings in Lincolnshire over the last few years. What they don't go on to say, is that if they look at the summary sheets in their entirety, that each year there is over a hundred reports that come from different locations. I think what you got here is just reporting things in their own area. Having said that, there are occasional hot spots and I asked one of my administrative staff to go back through the files to try and make an outlying map and try and pinpoint those sightings geographically. Interestingly, what you got, er, what you have is basically a population density map. Which essentially only proves that if there is a UFO sighting over 50 people are likely to see it, probably not. The UFO hot spots actually turn out to be big cities, London, Manchester and Liverpool in Great Britain.
We were always under the impression that if there were hot spots they would turn out to be nuclear power plants, etc.
Well there is something there, what you call clustering in interesting ways, it is quite controversial. Military bases for example, had a lot of UFO incidents, Randlesham Forest, Woodbridge, the Cosford incident although in fact, there are several dozens of UFO reports all around the country that pertain to military bases. Whether that means that UFOs. are interested in these sites or whether it is just that these sites are where the witnesses are trained observers and they are aware of UFOs. or more likely they're more apt to get investigated.
Have you ever investigate any abduction reports?
Yes, having said that, I think the word investigated might be difficult to describe that. It is what you might call, in terms of reference, in depth, perhaps a dozen or so. While short of doing something way outside our frame of reference, like calling the people in and doing hypnotic regressing, which is very controversial and that sort of thing. It is questionable, I think, morally. Now what I tried to do was to give them the pros and cons of regression and to point them to civilian UFO researchers. So I did get the report, I am not sure I can put my hand on my heart and say that I investigated them the same way that I investigate a UFO sighting.
At this point I've talked to you for an hour. I'd like to ask you more questions but I don't want to presume on you. Are you al right?
I am happy to keep going for a little bit.
Could I change my tape?
Sure.
Thanks. Okay, I'm back in business.
Okay, I don't know how many more questions you prepared? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- References: The Disclosure Project - A group of concerned people from all walks of life that are trying to get the US government to release all UFO data and alien technology, if any. Rendlesham Forest UFO Incident - In December of 1980, a UFO landed in the woods outside an air force base in Britain, It was manned by Americans who saw the craft and investigated the landing along with the British. Project Blue Book - An Air force project to explain UFO sightings. Gordon Williams - A British General that was rumored to have said that he talked to aliens during the Rendlesham Forest incident. Malmstrom Air Force Base - in 1967 a UFO was over this US base in Montana when several missiles were taken off line unexpectedly. Giorgio Bongiovanni - An Italian who was allowed to interview a Russian General about UFOs. The KGB were also present. Bob Lazar - A person who claims to have been an engineer at Area 51 who said he saw a UFO there and was employed to reverse engineer them. Shag Harbor - A UFO incident that occurred in Canada in 1967 where a UFO was said to have crashed into the water only to be followed by a second one. Gary McKinnon - A famous British hacker that hacked into NASA and the US military. He was caught and claimed that he found important secret UFO data. Remote Viewing - A technique that was used during the cold war by the US, Britain and the Soviet Union to see into places while remaining at a location. It was said to have no limit as far as distance was concerned. Jamie Maussan - A famous Mexican tv news reporter that specializes in UFO reporting. Area 51 - A secret US Air Force Base. |
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